Courageous post. I'm with you. When I post about it I get so many condescending lectures, like I don't know there is a proprortionality problem, like I never noticed Israel has military superiority fed by the US. While they don't want to hear about the October 7th attack AT ALL. Nor do they think the hostages are a big deal. I have yet to find a mutual exchange of thoughts that doesn't vilify Zionism. But a community where only Zionism is discussed is also very uncomfortable for me. We live in a very binary world. Anyway I am glad I found you.
We can take your thought experiment a step further. Let’s say you lived in the UK and had decided the U.S. shouldn’t exist. What’s your next (reasonable) step? And what’s your plan for the current residents of the U.S. once you’ve achieved your aims and the U.S. no longer exists?
How might we here in the U.S. respond to a growing movement in the U.K. that wanted the U.S. to disappear? A movement that suggested we should go back to our countries of origin, or be absorbed into Mexico or Canada. Would we respond by becoming more introspective and thinking more about how to address the many injustices we’ve perpetrated? Maybe a few people would go in that direction. But I think the majority would respond by digging in their heels and adopting an attitude of “America right or wrong.”
I think it would become more difficult to address the injustices perpetrated by America and to attend to the people who were harmed by them. The “America right or wrong” crowd would be energized and confirmed in their views. Meanwhile, the people harmed by America’s past mistakes would find their lives unchanged, or worse. It’s highly unlikely their lives would improve.
So what, you might ask, should a person in the UK do if they think America shouldn’t exist? They could hold that opinion but perhaps they’d be best off putting their advocacy energies elsewhere. It’s hard for the average UK citizen to influence America from the UK—even though the UK and America are close allies with loads of strategic cooperation. Maybe more good could be accomplished by attending to Ireland.
There are so many of these posts that claim to care about Palestinian suffering, and then declare that if they’d just turn away from Hamas, they’d get everything they ever wanted. That’s wrong.
The thing is… all of the defenses of Zionism as a concept are true. All of the condemnations of Hamas are accurate. But the acknowledgement of Israel’s role amounts to… “Israel isn’t perfect.” Never mind that they maintain what is, by any measure, an apartheid regime in the West Bank, where their military protects settlers who engage in regular pogroms against Palestinians while preventing Palestinians from doing things as simple as… gathering rainwater. It’s accurate that Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005. But it’s also been what Masha Gessen accurately describes as a ghetto. Palestinians mostly can’t get in or out. NGOs are severely restricted from operating. Much of the coastal waters can’t be fished in. Building materials are restricted.
If you ignore this, you aren’t being evenhanded or empathetic— you’re whitewashing and excusing very real atrocities that Israel’s government is committing. Now, I’m both a Jew and a Zionist. I believe in Israel’s right to exist. I’d like to see Hamas disappear tomorrow.
But decency requires standing up for human values regardless of your identity. And limiting Israel’s role to “it’s not perfect” is terrible hogwash, and really prevents any effort to get to a real resolution.
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. I receive comments often from other Jews who either think I am being too hard on Israel or not hard enough. The beauty of the Jewish people is that we so often disagree, but hopefully come to the same overall conclusion: that Jews are entitled to self determination in their indigenous homeland.
I agree with you about the West Bank situation. I think Netanyahu's endorsement of this behavior is not just deplorable but a true impediment to peace.
My intention with this piece is to give a broader explanation of Zionism - a very wide umbrella - without breaking down all the details of the history of the land, the conflict, and the mistakes of the current leadership. There are Zionists who believe Israel can do no wrong and Zionists who think Israel is committing atrocities in both the West Bank and Gaza. I'm glad I can create a space for that conversation.
Sure, all the details don’t need to be broken down. But the picture also needs to be accurate. And that doesn’t happen when the account is deliberately one sided.
There’s a broader explanation of Zionism that punts on the Palestinian issue altogether. Just like there’s a Palestinian case that doesn’t grapple with Hamas and blowing up buses. But once you give that full throated defense, the whole thing is discredited. Like when Palestine defenders come out with full throated lists of all of Israel’s misdeeds, real and imagined, and their mention of Hamas amounts to “we aren’t perfect.”
Why are you crying out for a 58th Islamic State against the one Jewish state? If I checked your comment history you'd probably do it most everyday as Islamic deflectionists are known to do as they ignore the Islamic call stated five times daily to fight the Jews and Christians until they pay the jizia while disregarding the fact that Israel occupies a nanofraction of a tiny particle of the Middle East on the land that has always been the Jewish land since before Islam and before Christianity yet dumbasses are crying out for Islamic overturning of a nation's sovereignty everyday how ludicrous
You fail to mention the restrictions at the border with Egypt? There is plenty of available film footage showing Gaza is/was far from a ghetto, and they certainly had no trouble getting materials in to build 500 miles of tunnels. I would guess from your use of the term ‘West bank’ and ‘apartheid’ you are perhaps of the opinion a 2 state solution could still be achieved? May I ask if you have spent time in Israel?
Gaza is rubble now. It was very much a ghetto. You can find footage of Somali beaches from 1992 too, but the fact is, it's long been a desperately poor strip of land. The unemployment rate, depending on how you measure it, was steadily between 25% and 50% before the latest war.
Yes, I've spent time in Israel. More than once. I've also been to the West Bank. And I'm of the opinion that a two-state solution, far away as it seems right now, is the only viable way of achieving my goal of a democratic and Jewish Israel, and an autonomous Palestinian territory. There are (broadly) three options-- one is two states (or three, if you think Gaza and the West Bank should be split), which involves forcing the withdrawal of settlers and the IDF and a Palestinian state next to a Jewish state. Another is a single democratic state. Given demographics, that state will quickly cease to be Jewish, and will, at best, turn into a modern day South Africa with a minority overclass. The far more likely outcome is that Jews will be run out of that state.
The last is apartheid. Which is where we are. Peoples living under a disparate set of laws based on their religion and ethnicity. One group that the law protects but does not fully bind (look, for instance, at how the Israelis treat settler violence against Palestinians; at best, they turn a blind eye, more often they facilitate pogroms). Another group that the law binds but does not protect. Two states is a difficult place to get to and involves sacrifice. It's probably a sacrifice well worth paying when the alternative is what can't be called anything other than apartheid.
West bank PA and Gaza jihadis are happily killing each other and have been since 2005. Judea and Samaria is Jewish land, and Jordan should return it to its rightful owners, Israel, and allow its Arabs to return to their homeland.
Have you met any Arabs willing to share land with Israel, or who acknowledge the right to exist of the State of Israel?
Are you content with the real apartheid in Area A, where if a Jew was to enter, never mind live, death would be imminent?
And purely in terms of land mass, Arab lands are many times greater than tiny Israel, so you could apply reasonable fairness in those terms alone maybe?
Uhhhh sorry, "let's ethnically cleanse the Palestinians" is not a reasonable position. Yes, I've met plenty of Arabs in favor of a two state solution. And no, your blathering the talking points of the Israeli right aren't going to get you anywhere.
You can go apologize for apartheid to someone else. I'm neither that dumb nor that depraved. Perhaps you could find a Hamas apologist to spew hate at; they might be more on your level.
But theres no such people as Palestinians. If you accept this point things become so much easier. I am certainly not apologising for ‘Israeli apartheid’ as it exists only in the head of the lunatic left.
Sounds like something a proponent for an Islamic State would state to islamically deflect from the inherent hateful elemental foundational kill every Jew everywhere until we have killed them and then we go after the Christians
The Arabs must end their racist occupation of Jewish land and apologies for all the crimes they've committed against the Jewish people. Only then will their be peace
Courageous post. I'm with you. When I post about it I get so many condescending lectures, like I don't know there is a proprortionality problem, like I never noticed Israel has military superiority fed by the US. While they don't want to hear about the October 7th attack AT ALL. Nor do they think the hostages are a big deal. I have yet to find a mutual exchange of thoughts that doesn't vilify Zionism. But a community where only Zionism is discussed is also very uncomfortable for me. We live in a very binary world. Anyway I am glad I found you.
Thank you. I am glad you found me too!
We can take your thought experiment a step further. Let’s say you lived in the UK and had decided the U.S. shouldn’t exist. What’s your next (reasonable) step? And what’s your plan for the current residents of the U.S. once you’ve achieved your aims and the U.S. no longer exists?
How might we here in the U.S. respond to a growing movement in the U.K. that wanted the U.S. to disappear? A movement that suggested we should go back to our countries of origin, or be absorbed into Mexico or Canada. Would we respond by becoming more introspective and thinking more about how to address the many injustices we’ve perpetrated? Maybe a few people would go in that direction. But I think the majority would respond by digging in their heels and adopting an attitude of “America right or wrong.”
I think it would become more difficult to address the injustices perpetrated by America and to attend to the people who were harmed by them. The “America right or wrong” crowd would be energized and confirmed in their views. Meanwhile, the people harmed by America’s past mistakes would find their lives unchanged, or worse. It’s highly unlikely their lives would improve.
So what, you might ask, should a person in the UK do if they think America shouldn’t exist? They could hold that opinion but perhaps they’d be best off putting their advocacy energies elsewhere. It’s hard for the average UK citizen to influence America from the UK—even though the UK and America are close allies with loads of strategic cooperation. Maybe more good could be accomplished by attending to Ireland.
Well written. I hope it enlightens not just one or two, or even a few, but many.
God bless you for the courage to "speak out" with wisdom!
Gary
Thank you that means a lot to hear
There are so many of these posts that claim to care about Palestinian suffering, and then declare that if they’d just turn away from Hamas, they’d get everything they ever wanted. That’s wrong.
The thing is… all of the defenses of Zionism as a concept are true. All of the condemnations of Hamas are accurate. But the acknowledgement of Israel’s role amounts to… “Israel isn’t perfect.” Never mind that they maintain what is, by any measure, an apartheid regime in the West Bank, where their military protects settlers who engage in regular pogroms against Palestinians while preventing Palestinians from doing things as simple as… gathering rainwater. It’s accurate that Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005. But it’s also been what Masha Gessen accurately describes as a ghetto. Palestinians mostly can’t get in or out. NGOs are severely restricted from operating. Much of the coastal waters can’t be fished in. Building materials are restricted.
If you ignore this, you aren’t being evenhanded or empathetic— you’re whitewashing and excusing very real atrocities that Israel’s government is committing. Now, I’m both a Jew and a Zionist. I believe in Israel’s right to exist. I’d like to see Hamas disappear tomorrow.
But decency requires standing up for human values regardless of your identity. And limiting Israel’s role to “it’s not perfect” is terrible hogwash, and really prevents any effort to get to a real resolution.
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. I receive comments often from other Jews who either think I am being too hard on Israel or not hard enough. The beauty of the Jewish people is that we so often disagree, but hopefully come to the same overall conclusion: that Jews are entitled to self determination in their indigenous homeland.
I agree with you about the West Bank situation. I think Netanyahu's endorsement of this behavior is not just deplorable but a true impediment to peace.
My intention with this piece is to give a broader explanation of Zionism - a very wide umbrella - without breaking down all the details of the history of the land, the conflict, and the mistakes of the current leadership. There are Zionists who believe Israel can do no wrong and Zionists who think Israel is committing atrocities in both the West Bank and Gaza. I'm glad I can create a space for that conversation.
Chag Pesach Sameach
Sure, all the details don’t need to be broken down. But the picture also needs to be accurate. And that doesn’t happen when the account is deliberately one sided.
There’s a broader explanation of Zionism that punts on the Palestinian issue altogether. Just like there’s a Palestinian case that doesn’t grapple with Hamas and blowing up buses. But once you give that full throated defense, the whole thing is discredited. Like when Palestine defenders come out with full throated lists of all of Israel’s misdeeds, real and imagined, and their mention of Hamas amounts to “we aren’t perfect.”
Why are you crying out for a 58th Islamic State against the one Jewish state? If I checked your comment history you'd probably do it most everyday as Islamic deflectionists are known to do as they ignore the Islamic call stated five times daily to fight the Jews and Christians until they pay the jizia while disregarding the fact that Israel occupies a nanofraction of a tiny particle of the Middle East on the land that has always been the Jewish land since before Islam and before Christianity yet dumbasses are crying out for Islamic overturning of a nation's sovereignty everyday how ludicrous
https://youtu.be/26NXV4l9jwg?si=QulZDXdCr-sebReb
You fail to mention the restrictions at the border with Egypt? There is plenty of available film footage showing Gaza is/was far from a ghetto, and they certainly had no trouble getting materials in to build 500 miles of tunnels. I would guess from your use of the term ‘West bank’ and ‘apartheid’ you are perhaps of the opinion a 2 state solution could still be achieved? May I ask if you have spent time in Israel?
Gaza is rubble now. It was very much a ghetto. You can find footage of Somali beaches from 1992 too, but the fact is, it's long been a desperately poor strip of land. The unemployment rate, depending on how you measure it, was steadily between 25% and 50% before the latest war.
Yes, I've spent time in Israel. More than once. I've also been to the West Bank. And I'm of the opinion that a two-state solution, far away as it seems right now, is the only viable way of achieving my goal of a democratic and Jewish Israel, and an autonomous Palestinian territory. There are (broadly) three options-- one is two states (or three, if you think Gaza and the West Bank should be split), which involves forcing the withdrawal of settlers and the IDF and a Palestinian state next to a Jewish state. Another is a single democratic state. Given demographics, that state will quickly cease to be Jewish, and will, at best, turn into a modern day South Africa with a minority overclass. The far more likely outcome is that Jews will be run out of that state.
The last is apartheid. Which is where we are. Peoples living under a disparate set of laws based on their religion and ethnicity. One group that the law protects but does not fully bind (look, for instance, at how the Israelis treat settler violence against Palestinians; at best, they turn a blind eye, more often they facilitate pogroms). Another group that the law binds but does not protect. Two states is a difficult place to get to and involves sacrifice. It's probably a sacrifice well worth paying when the alternative is what can't be called anything other than apartheid.
West bank PA and Gaza jihadis are happily killing each other and have been since 2005. Judea and Samaria is Jewish land, and Jordan should return it to its rightful owners, Israel, and allow its Arabs to return to their homeland.
Have you met any Arabs willing to share land with Israel, or who acknowledge the right to exist of the State of Israel?
Are you content with the real apartheid in Area A, where if a Jew was to enter, never mind live, death would be imminent?
And purely in terms of land mass, Arab lands are many times greater than tiny Israel, so you could apply reasonable fairness in those terms alone maybe?
Uhhhh sorry, "let's ethnically cleanse the Palestinians" is not a reasonable position. Yes, I've met plenty of Arabs in favor of a two state solution. And no, your blathering the talking points of the Israeli right aren't going to get you anywhere.
You can go apologize for apartheid to someone else. I'm neither that dumb nor that depraved. Perhaps you could find a Hamas apologist to spew hate at; they might be more on your level.
But theres no such people as Palestinians. If you accept this point things become so much easier. I am certainly not apologising for ‘Israeli apartheid’ as it exists only in the head of the lunatic left.
Nonsensical blatherings
Sounds like something a proponent for an Islamic State would state to islamically deflect from the inherent hateful elemental foundational kill every Jew everywhere until we have killed them and then we go after the Christians
Please 🤦
https://youtu.be/26NXV4l9jwg?si=QulZDXdCr-sebReb
The Arabs must end their racist occupation of Jewish land and apologies for all the crimes they've committed against the Jewish people. Only then will their be peace
It means Jewish supremacy according to Norman Finkelstein.